mobygratis and Humanising the Music Industry with Rohan Carroll (AU-NZ Music Podcast)

Welcome to the AU-NZ Music Podcast, where Reuben (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠GYMjot⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠) dives into the Australian and New Zealand music scene with industry guests, sharing insights on music news, standout tracks, and artist development.

Episode 6 features Rohan, who organises multiple artistic events around Melbourne.

• ​📰 News Fix: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Moby Relaunches mobygratis with 500 New Free Tracks for Creators⁠
• ​🎶 Song Spotlight: ⁠⁠Brighter Skies - JAMES C. ATKINS⁠
• ​🦾 Artist Development: Humanise industry heads and be prepared.

This podcast is presented by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠GYMjot: Get Your Musical Journey On Track⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, an artist development service based in Melbourne. If you are ready to unlock your inner artist, then get in touch today to get a

FREE 30-minute consultation!

Below is an auto-generated transcript from the episode which can be streamed on YouTube or your podcast streaming service.

Kiaora Folks, here we are. Episode six of the Australia New Zealand music podcast. Welcome [Music] Uh, yes. Today I am sitting down with a friend from Melbourne once again, Rowan. How are we doing today, brother? >> Yeah, really good, actually. I've been gardening all day, so I'm I'm pretty in it. >> Feeling refreshed, feeling aligned with the nature. >> Something like that. >> Yeah, nice nice dirty hands. Uh they were it was we did a lot of chugging art. So I'm pretty aligned with a skip

that we hired. So >> beautiful. >> That's a bin for all the Kiwis listening. I don't know what you guys call it. It's a big metal thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. We call it a skip. >> Do you? >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Anyway, I'll give you uh all a little bit of a debrief about who Rowan is uh and his creative endeavors which are quite diverse really. Yeah. Yet again, another diverse creative joining us as I said based in Melbourne. Rowan loves,

well, if I had to sum it up, Rowan loves to host an event and partake in events. Uh, anything to do with the arts really, um, musical DND at the Bergie Saltza, songwriters cafe, also at the Bergy Saltza, theme local jams, art shows, an array of exhibitions, and he's also a key player in helping me make the listening room, which is an open mic night at Nighthawks, a possibility. He might argue that it seems like, but I am very grateful for his help. Um, and I'm very grateful for you just activating

the art scene in Melbourne in general. Is there anything that I missed there? >> Less I hate taking credit for things. >> Well, then why don't you take some credit for a fun silly fact? Could you tell us about a son a silly fun fact about you? >> I sent you a weird one. Um, but I got it. I've forgotten it. So, I eat from one. I had, you know, the mandala effect. I had this photo when I was a child of me eating a lollipop at Movie World, which is like a big theme park on

um the Gold Coast. And for some reason, like my brain like anchored a whole experience around that. And I was like I like talked about my parents like probably like 20 years after the fact and was like, "Ah, yeah. I remember this whole day we had at movie world." And they were like, "No, we you never went." I was like, "What?" I'm like, "Why have I got a picture of me with a bat, you know, with a lollipop next to Batman?" And they were like, "Oh, that was just

like at a thing." And I was like, "But we went on the rides." Like I had like a fear reaction in the gremlin's ride. Like a whole thing. And they were like So yeah, I um >> Wow, that is a fun one. Fabricated memories. >> Yeah, but like obviously I was like four, but like still bit of a trip. >> Yeah, maybe your parents just be tripping. No, they're the memories like pretty spotty, but um I looked at the photo again and like what I thought was movie world was just like Batman was in a

local park. You know, it's hard to keep track of all the times you meet Batman as a kid. >> Oh yeah, >> countless still happening for me. >> I would like to meet him more, but you know, >> I'm an adult apparently that never happens anymore. Why do they bring Batman to more stuff I go to? Sucks. >> You You could be the Batman. You know, >> I wish but I have to be running these things and it would be weird if I did it in a Batman costume. >> There is a job to be filled. The

Melbourne Batman. >> Anywh who, moving on to the news digest for the week. This one entitled uh Moby relaunches Moby Gratus with 500 free 500 new free tracks for creators. It's from Happy Mags uh Alex Cooper. N uh Moby is an electronic music legend who has now supercharged his Moby Gratis platform, adding 500 plus new instrumental tracks, all completely free for indie filmmakers, nonprofits, and artists. Launching in 2005, the library has complemented 50,000 projects with zero royalties, hidden fees, or

corporate strings. It now has multitrack stems which are remix ready and intuitive search filters like BPM, mood, and genre. There is one rule. No farright politics or animal product ads allowed. MOI says it's about sustainability and creativity. You can use these tracks for commercial purposes until 10,000 audio streams or 50,000 video streams. So go get creative at mobyradest.com. Some really interesting stuff and an interesting model which brings me to this idea around the plethora of free

music samples tracks in our in our scene at the moment and also these these sample generators you know using text prompts uh song generators using text prompts. What is your feel Rowan on the current climate of these technological innovations uh sort of lessening uh or creating more accessibility to musical creativity in a way but maybe with some some downfalls in the way. What do you think? >> I I mean first off shout out to Moby. I actually sent me the link when I watched the video where he talks about it and um

yeah he's I I was reading a lot of the language on the website being like what can I use this for? It's clear, but it's kind of a bit murky. And then basically in the video, he's just like anyone can use this. If you're worried about a copyright issue, the answer is yes. He doesn't care as long as, like you said, it's very they were very specific about noble products. No farright stuff. But otherwise, yeah, I thought it was he thought it was really genuine. It's quite cool. I mean, the guy won a bunch

of awards in 2003. >> Who's heard from him since he got interrupted by Kanye, I think, at some point. And then >> apparently he's just been pumping out free music for people. What a ledge. >> Yeah, it's crazy, man. Like, I don't know how he has the time to do it. I guess that's the luxury of being an electronic superstar. >> Yeah, it reminded me of I was reading this article about um after Prince died, they they he left a vault, not like a, you know, a CD or anything, just like a

vault of unreleased tracks and he had like 6,000 tracks on there. And um they forgot to tell anyone the the code. So his manager had to cut through the safe because he obviously putting his will to get it out there. >> And yeah, but I mean I mean that's what these people do. I always think of them just sitting around by pools putting cocaine on balls and then rubbing those balls on other balls and you know caviars somewhere. But I guess they like making music and just because they only

put out 13 songs a year doesn't mean that it make 500 songs. And like even Moby was saying he's got another a thousand to put up. So yeah, just cool. Yeah, I think making things like this is only getting easier as well. Um, I don't I have I would be curious to see how he makes them. If he does it in studio, if he plays uh analog instruments or if he programs them or >> he said all acoustic >> what he does, >> it's all acoustic stuff. >> It's all acoustic.

>> Yeah. So, >> yeah. Right. >> He must just be for himself. And >> he has some that are um a lot of the songs are for bands as well to mix and maybe uh it's not a full song. You can add like a bass or a drums to it, but for some songs they're released as restricted, so you have to use them as is for like >> and remember he did make he did make a James Bond theme. So some of them are just like that. They're just like big theme scores that you can use to

>> introduce like a heist or something. But >> um >> yeah, >> but I like what you're saying. >> Have you ever played around with things like this before? >> Yeah, a little bit. I um I used to use when I was streaming uh a thing called Monsterat who did something really similar. They released just tons of free electronic tracks and often like mixes of royalty-free electronic tracks and it became you could use them to like just have them there when you were starting a

stream. So you would just go like play >> then you would have you know the 40 minutes of music while you launch the stream got it set up and it was really handy. Or then like >> uh if we needed intros to clips because we were doing like esports stuff it just made sense. is really really really handy because often like hunting through the big free royalty-free music sites. It's just like like the people have made stuff, but like like even even Moby said as to like how he was sorting his his

own stuff, it was all subjective. Like he doesn't know what New Wave is apparently. And when I'd go like search like cool intro music on a royalty-free thing, >> you could get, you know, people playing pots and pans or like somebody, you know, doing a full chill track or >> like I listen to one and I was like, this is the track. But like 3 minutes in the vocals come in and it's just somebody yodelling and it ruined the whole thing. But it's like and it's innocuously known named cuz who's going

to put something out free? Unlike moi spend the time categorizing and building a website, you know, yada yada yada. when people put their free stuff out, they just call it chill vibes and then you're like you have to go and listen to it. So, >> it's a good point like the categorization process is not uh light admin. >> No, >> and it is very subjective. I used to make uh guitar samples with some friends >> and yeah, coming up with the idea was not like the sample itself, the musical

idea, that wasn't the hard part. The hard part was recording it to tiptop quality for starters. So that it's it's got to be top quality if you want people to use it, if you want people to buy it. Um, and then yeah, trying to be like, what is this? Like what what world does this fit in? You know, cuz like just a guitar by itself, I mean, >> you could dress this up in a great many ways. I uh I did used to when I was doing I still kind of do actually like I when I was doing some beat making for

some social media videos um I used a beatmaker online that was tapped into like a royalty-free free free database and it I think the database was categorized but then they done another subcategorization before you saw it so you could really reliably type in like disco funk or >> new wave or you know uh '90s hip-hop sounds and that was And then they had like a premium thing where they bought some or they bought access to a catalog or something and then they' taken the time to sort it. It

was really good. >> Yeah. >> Um fiddly like not as good as Garage Band or like I mean the last last big program like that I used was something by Propeller Head but >> yeah it was still >> well the king of samples is surely splice at this point. I don't know if you've used splice much, but it seems to be the industry standard and just a plethora of options. Even just like simple one hits, you know, just like a big floor tom sound >> or just one big chord and um sample that

as you please. >> Subscription model though, not free, not moy free. >> Gratis gratis. >> Seeing for those who don't know, gratis is free in Spanish. But if you're doing some sort of ad where Bacon supports some fascist dictator, well, look, you got to do what you got to do. You know, >> pigs for pigs. >> I mean, I'm tempted to do it just to see if he catches me. >> Well, yeah. I mean, obviously like both our countries have massive dictator problems at the moment, so you know.

>> Yeah. >> Oh, actually yours does. What am I saying? Oh my god. But >> ah, come on. Give us a break. >> Um, what do you think? Do you have any forecasts about what is in store for us in the future in terms of generating generative AI samples um songs for that matter? >> I got so into this um it's like this country music AI thing and they were making these songs that >> um cuz like there was this like there was this artist about a year and a half ago and he got really famous because he

was like an out and queer country music artist. He does that song about uh I think it's like sliding in your [ __ ] or something and he's like got a really like authentic like you know South American country sound like he's got the voice plays a slide guitar but the sound is about obviously him getting down with other men and there's out of that I think somebody put a lot his back catalog into an AI and we're able to generate just all these really really funny like country music songs and some

of it garbled like like they give it a prompt um what was one it was I give it something like like messy like ah I put I put ketchup ketchup in my vodka like a like a smooth slide in salmon like that would just be the line and then somehow this whole this AI would fill out everything else you know a preverse that leads into condiments and fish and then the chorus of course would include that line slip slide and salmon and my ketchup in my vodka or something but it would all just like magically come together and I used to

like watch them every time they came out they were so dumb but it was always so impressive watching like you would watch somebody improv a song like this AI figure out what little tiny crumbs it has to lead so that it all makes sense when it says this nonsensical country music line. >> I found I don't know whether that's like good for creative people but it's fun to watch. >> Whatever it is, it is. >> Yeah, >> there's no slowing it at this point. So >> there's adaptation or

see you later. >> Well, I I read >> is the case with all these things. I was reading a really good quote by I was like okay someone like maybe like Rick Rubin or one of those like nerds who does music production um which is to say really talented industry veteran but um they were talking about like this idea that I'm sure AI is like threatening for like lots of creative arts but people who want to make stuff are still going to make stuff and I think lowering the battery I think they were saying in

terms of like the barrier will be lowered to the floor but and that will like take all the money out of it but it's like people who still want to make stuff will make stuff. So, I think that gave me a little bit of peace in the sense of like I don't make any money off of anything I do really. But I know that like I I'm a believer that within myself I will still want to make something even if there is like um you know bunch of AIs learning how to play the ukulele like I am. >> Couldn't agree more. Yeah, music making

is it's part of my well-being practice. You know, it's not it's not about generating income. It's more about uh sustaining myself as an individual, >> but still sucks if you're trying to make money. >> It does. I've got an intruder coming into the scene here. >> My new cat Sativa wants to get onto the screen. How about that? >> Well, it might be a good time to pull into our song of the week. Um song of the month, rather. This is uh Brightest Skies by um who is it again? James C.

James C. Atkins, Atkins, not actually 100% sure how to say that. Brightest skies nonetheless. Um, we're going to go have a listen to the full song right now. You should go check it out, too. But we're going to give you a quick little one minute snip and then we'll be back with part two. [Music] >> You have to earn your pay. But I've worked hard enough. I think I'll call your blood. I have heard them pray. Lord, my soul to save. I thought to myself won't save them from their graves.

It seems the more you try, the less you care to die. Morning's coming round and I'll be here right down. Morning's coming round and I will [Music] go cuz I look for brighter skies. I will make my way into the night. I will try to catch the lights. >> Brighter skies. Yeah, song. Very upbeat feels, James. I like it. I like it. Um, what what grabs your attention in that song, Rowan? >> Uh, like the first chorus like prickles cuz it's got that whole like build and that's like, oh, it was great. Yeah. I

uh >> my >> Yeah, I think that'd be wild to listen to you live for real. >> Yeah. Yeah. He's got a big strong voice. He's got a lot of soul in his voice. >> Yeah. I feel like he has some stories to tell me. I actually uh I kind of felt as well it gave me an appreciation for I I well actually this isn't the song that gave me it but I appreciate it because of you know that song what the hell it's this song that just this guy says what the hell what the hellante just

over and over again like it's like one of those like mumble rap same lyric 100 times. Um, but it it made me it it put me on this idea of like appreciating when people use a lyric over and over again or like not being so realizing that your brain is getting bored of repetition particularly in a song. And I really liked like this. It felt like it was using a lot of the same lyrics together. And I just I just really liked it. Just the mix-ups were fun and the buildup was fun. And I found myself like

waiting for like, oh, he's going to he's going to do the thing. The drums are going to be there. The guitar's going to be there. It was fun. >> Yeah. He he made some nice arcs of dynamics. Um, even I think it was just his voice and guitar at the start and then the drums sort of ease their way in and then pre chorus there's a bit more like um accents on hits and then when he hits those high notes at the start of the chorus that's uh >> it's tasty James >> the only complaint I had about it was

probably there was this bit I think post bridge about like a minute 40 where my the way it sounded auditorially was like somebody had left a few too many samples going in a track. So, I think the drums stayed over and then we we cut to like second verse after the bridge >> and it just I wanted like I said I wanted that like build but it felt like the drums were still there at kind of the same volume >> and I like that was the one complaint I could had cuz I think my first listen >> I was like a little bit bored of it

after like 2 minutes like still fun and then it was like >> the rises and I'm like yeah country music or life is good but >> I actually I gave it a second listen and yeah that it wasn't the whole the whole back of the song it was just this like one bit where a few too many instruments were in but otherwise it was great. That's my like Yeah. >> Yeah. You almost wanted it to dip a little bit more up >> and you need to do it. I listened to it again like a third time cuz I was like I

don't want to crit critique this song without like giving it a third listen. >> It feels like just something just needs to happen. some other noise to happen or even a little drop like a little silent drop whatever so that you could just quietly duck the drums down like five dB or something and then they could kind of come back in back for the chorus but >> I can see >> yeah there's such such a subtle art doing that I mean that's almost like a mixing thing >> um and it can be very actually specific

to your listening utensils as well like um listening through a set of monitors the impact act of the dynamics is going to be different as opposed to listening through your laptop speakers for example. >> I mean these these I was actually listening every time on mostly on these headphones and they've been through the wash like three times. So >> yeah. >> Yeah. I always make an effort to listen on different different um platforms when I'm doing my own music getting it mixed

or mastered. Um, >> I gave it a run through run through some other things like I think first time was on the tram, second time was >> uh I think I just had Yeah, I probably plugged in speakers at the studio and this time was through the laptop and I think somewhere in between that was where maybe first listen on these it was just a little bit boring. So maybe that is headphones but >> yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, thanks for providing that song anyway, James Brighter Skies. I love it.

It was one of the favorite ones she played for me at uh the listening room back in November. Once again, that's the open mic night. And speaking of listening on different listening utensils, that's exactly what I like to do on my song feedback that you can tap into if you head on over to jimjot.com.au. It's a free service. We provide uh a page worth of notes about your song or you can upgrade that service to get an indepth full analysis of the song and who knows your submission might end up

right here on the Australian New Zealand music podcast. And feedback is one of the most important tools for development. But development in general is uh is where Jim Jop thrives. Uh with our tried and tested development course, you can unlock your inner artist and find your musical direction all within the context of your situation. So zoom on over to jimjot.com.au to book a free 30inut consultation right now. Go. Why wait? Yow, yum, yum, yum, yum. Let's do it. Ad spin done. That brings us to artist development in

general. Rowan, I'd like to ask our guests, when did you encounter an impactful aha moment in terms of your artistic development? It could be recent, could be the first one that comes to mind, or it could be something that you you really wear on your sleeve every day. >> Doesn't have to be music related either. >> Yeah. Yeah. Just saying. I mean like the most recent one I I think I went to that uh opera opera run a um have been running workshops for artists to come and kind of find out what opera is and

in this case I had a bunch of people from music Victoria on a panel and one of the things that absolutely killed me was they they spoke to a how nice they were and how approachable they want to be and then in the next sentence said I get I listen to 400 songs and I get like 300 emails a day and so when you email tell me what you want. Like just ask for anything, but be really clear in what it is. And um it made me realize that I've probably been missing out on just I know cuz I'm part of an art collective

and we like reach out to a bunch of stuff. Like when we reach out to like beer companies and ask them for beer, they give us beer. Like if I could pay my rent in beer, I'd be killing it as an artist. But it makes me think about like in other ways when we've reached out to galleries or you know bigger organizations or just looking for advice on grants when maybe the fear that we've had about asking has been we want to ask everything. We want to say like is this any good? Is this a good idea? Will they

like me? Will people turn up? You know, can can you help? But all those questions are just the most annoying things to get. Like I've got those questions from artists when we've been setting up events and I've been like oh my god this is like a 10 20 minute time sync. I got all day but I still hate it. I can't imagine like being somebody who's like again pretty high up in industry. In these case, there was, you know, obviously in radio and and talent management and publicist, but just that

piece of advice about if you can talk to people that you think are cool, but they're busy and just be really clear about what you want, but they'll get back to you. And I think that's >> Yeah, >> it's like when they say like, you know, shoot your shot, but in in that nice way, which is just be really direct with what you want. Like, you know, if you like somebody, say, hey, I I think I I think you're cute. I think we'd vibe. Do you want to go out? And if you ask it

really simply, it's not like >> it's not like you're putting your life on the line. You're just asking you're saying, "Hey, I want to go out with you." And if they say no, it's like we're done. But the same way like >> if I email Nick Cave and be like, "Hey, can you listen to my song?" >> That's one that's one little ask. Worst case, he never does it, but it seems like we're not Nick Cave, but people high up in industry might actually do

that thing. So >> yeah, that was a really good point. >> I got to like have that process. >> Yeah. Yeah. He's still processing that one. Yeah. No, that that's a really important one actually. Um, you got to bring the humanity back into these people in industry and what you what they're going to be dealing with dayto-day. 300 songs a day like that's not even it's not even possible to get through that. I I think I it was just Yeah, it was like they I guess like on that like on

humanity, it was like they were reminding us they were human, but I think it was really when when I when they were kind of talking about like the worst things they get emailed with. It would have been like a new band being like, "Hey, no big deal, but like we have this song out in like next week and we've got a gig in like two days in like a friend's like pub, but uh like if you want to listen to it, whatever. And like if you give us a shout out, that'd be sick. But like it's cool. Like that

email would just do nothing. Like you'd be like, "Who are these like incredibly disorganized people?" But I think what they want is just like, "Hi, I really care about my music. I'm in this really cool band and like I spend three hours doing my hair for every show, but also I get that you're busy and I'm showing you that I'm not a [ __ ] and he is my he's this simple ass which is could you listen to this song and tell me what you think? Is the mastering okay?" Well,

it's also something like um >> I'm releasing this is my completely finished song. I'm releasing it in two months time. >> Yeah. >> Um is there any chance that I could get if you're messaging like a radio show um any chance of getting a premiere and these are the three presenters that I think the song aligns with with the music that they play. So, you're telling them exactly where you want the music to go to for those presenters to be like, "Yep, keen or no, not keen. was funny.

Even when I was googling James, I could see his release schedule for that song because there's there's a news article there. There's another news article. He's on like I listen to that song on YouTube Music, but he's also on Spotify. He's on Apple Music. He's on a bunch of platforms. Like he's redone his socials. He done a like the Google results for that song were six pieces of Instagram content he'd made. So like clearly he'd gotten the advice to be organized, you

know, six weeks out. But I could, if you've been talking to me as a musician, >> you know, 5 10 years ago, I probably would have just rushed everything. So I wouldn't even thought to have like a 6 day a week plan or to make it >> Oh, yeah. >> clear to people that like, hey, I'm not talking to you because this thing is urgent. I'm talking to you because we're taking it slow >> and like because we care. >> Yeah. Yeah. releasing music. If if you want to do it

to increase your chances of getting reach and success and support, you really want to have all your assets in hand at least a month before release and preferably two months before release and preferably even more 3 months before release. You know, like sitting on the cover art, the masters, the visualizers, some some social content, the copy, the story behind the song, your biography, having all of that up to date. the aesthetic value, the color scheme, some outfits you want to be wearing to align

with the whole release, some potential uh press that you can reach out to, some potential radio presenters, whatever it is, all of that, your distribution sorted. There's there's a lot to think about. It's it's kind of overwhelming. Hence, getting it ready beforehand. But even then, it's it's this is where I feel a lot for for um musicians maybe a little bit more than because I I make visual art usually in that like the expectations of like a solo musician to be any good at any of those things. Like

I know I find myself doing graphic design for lots of different creative projects and like I'm often also planning a social media calendar or getting a newsletter ready or doing a bit more promo, but like that's hard and that's on top of me doing my own stuff. And then when I go do video things, like I'm bad at that. Like, uh, yeah. Um, you know, so it's like to expect one artist or even just three, four artists to be able to do not only play and create in a way that makes them not want to quit

when they have no money, but then to also be, you know, good at all these other weird promo techniques. It's insane. I >> Yeah. Yeah. Which is why a team is so important, which is something that was alluded to at those connect sessions for APA as well. like having people around you and leaning into your creative support network, trying to outsource these things where you can. Obviously, it's not always financially possible, but >> also tools like AI tools coming into play are making this more accessible for

musicians to generate >> emails. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. In and of itself. Um, >> but yeah, it always it's it's a lot. It's always a lot, but that's kind of what we signed up for. you know, this is the industry we're in. >> I know for like visual artists, I there's a I share a studio with um a person who does tattooing on the other side and they they do tons of like social media content and like I'll be I'll be sitting there. We have a wall between us and like, "Oh, hey Jen, what

are you up to?" They'll be like, "Oh, I'm just doing my like, you know, wrap up of this last tattoo for real or something." And like for their practice, like cuz they do illustration as well. their practice is do a tattoo, get paid for that, do some illustrations, put that on Instagram, but then also make content of all this stuff. Like that's just automatic for them. >> So, I part of their job >> and you forget that. I know I hate promo and for myself anyway. Um like I I don't

want to tell anyone about anything I'm doing and I don't want praise and I just want to be left alone in a little cave and to invite people into that cave to look at my cave drawings like once every six months maybe. Um, but like I still got to do it, you know? >> Yeah. Tool Poppy syndrome, huh? >> But that's where it's fun like like you said with a team because like you can have your best mate do something like a poster or do your emailing out for something or, you know, do that

runaround to drop off poster pubs. And it's just that like impartiality of them being slightly separated from the most precious creative thing you've ever done can just get and I know for me I'm like that's where I'm at with some people's stuff. They're like, "Can you do this?" And like, yeah, sure, you know, impartial. It's fine. I'll do it. It's not going to kill me. You can have a couple edits. Like, it's fine. But I think if if I know like having even

having Gustu, who runs the art collective do all the sponsorship re reachouts and that, it's like magic for me. Like I would never do that. >> Yeah. Well, it's also a lot easier to promote other people. I find having wrote press releases and biographies for artists, musicians in the past, it's like >> I find it so easy to talk these these guys up. >> Yeah. >> Because I'm on their team. I I believe in them and I'm I get behind them. To get behind yourself, it can be a little

bit hard to string all those accolades together and be like and and still be enthusiastic without feeling arrogant. >> Yeah. I um Yep. >> Yep. But it's I don't know. It's it's it's weird. There's definitely like mindset change for a lot of it. But but then it's like, you know, that's that's like just promo. What about like costumes? What about like, you know, planning a brand or anything? It's just that's the same thing all there. Like why are we expecting

>> Yeah. Let alone let alone technical skills. >> Yeah. Actually being proficient at the instrument and performance, being comfortable on stage, knowing how to work a crowd. >> Yeah. Or I mean, the weird skill I bring is I make websites sometimes. And it's like I forget that like for people who've got no coding ability, a website is like the boogeyman. You know, things can take years to make. >> Oh yeah. >> It'd be easier for me to probably learn the bass guitar than it would be for

somebody who couldn't who maybe had made a website before to put it all together and be willing to put themselves out like that sometimes. It's like >> Yeah. And you can often forget the the power of the skills you have, right? Cuz you almost just start to assume Yeah. But everyone knows how to do that, right? Everyone's comfortable doing that. >> Well, comfortable is another thing. Like I I'm not good at soundboards, but I don't mind touching them. >> Yeah.

>> You know, like if I get electrocuted one day, that'll be a quick lesson. But um I I definitely met people like, "I don't touch this. This is you. You let me near that thing. It'll all sound bad. I'll ruin everything." I'm like, >> "I'll ruin everything. It's fine." >> You're willing to get those hands dirty. Full circle. Bang. Um, I reckon on that note, yeah, we are done here for episode six. Thanks, Rowan. Um, do you want to direct people

anywhere? Any, uh, places they should be landing? >> Uh, yeah, I I think, uh, if you haven't heard of the Songwriters Cafe, um, do check that out. You can Google that and I think we're the top result on Eventbrite. Um, it's like a recurring workshop where we people bring songs and we we talk about them and um talk about our creative hang-ups and learn silly vocal warm-ups and things and it's been really fun. And it's uh every three weeks at um at the Bergie Seltza on a

Monday. >> Yeah, that's me me and Rowan met actually. >> Yeah, I'm really glad that >> big fan. Um any socials people should be following? Um, yeah, if you if you follow me on Instagram, um, you won't see much of my art, but you'll see every event I'm promoing. Um, and also sometimes my art, you know, like it's like my ratio is currently nine promo to one thing I made. So, um, tr.io is the place to find me. >> Nice. Awesome. Well, thanks for joining

us again. and we're going to let you play out a little bit more of Brighter Skies. Shout out to James once more. Uh yeah, that's us. Australia New Zealand music podcast. Until next time, team. Chowo chow. Pleasure.