Music Tourism and Artist Direction with Emily Cheung (AU-NZ Music Podcast)

Welcome to the AU-NZ Music Podcast, where Reuben (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠GYMjot⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠) dives into the Australian and New Zealand music scene with industry guests, sharing insights on music news, standout tracks, and artist development.

Episode 7 features Emily Cheung, who runs the PR outfit ⁠On The Map PR⁠ based in Melbourne, working with artists such as Pete Murray, RÜFÜS DU SOL, and Amy Shark.

• ​📰 News Fix: ⁠Music Tourism Market Size, Share & Trends Analysis Report⁠
• ​🎶 Song Spotlight: ⁠⁠⁠Magnolia - Domini Forster⁠
• ​🦾 Artist Development: Music Biz Trends, and taking your time.

This podcast is presented by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠GYMjot: Get Your Musical Journey On Track⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, an artist development service based in Melbourne. If you are ready to unlock your inner artist, then get in touch today to get a⁠

FREE 30-minute consultation⁠!

Below is an auto-generated transcript of the episode, which you can stream on YouTube or your podcast streaming service of choice.

Hello team. Here we are checking in episode 7. Welcome to the AU New Zealand music podcast. Yes, today we're very lucky. We have Emily joining us all the way from down the road in Melbourne. How you doing, Emily? >> I'm so good. Thanks for having me. How are you? >> I'm good, thanks. I'm good, thanks. I'm just going to give everyone a little bit of a background scoop. Emily always knew she wanted to work in media, even she wasn't quite sure where she'd land. That

curiosity did lead her to a triple major at RMIT, though, and that was in radio, print, and journalism. I'm sort of just hitting them all with one smack. Eh, after some work experience with the indie outlets like Sin and Triple R, she got her foot in the door at one of the big players, starting as an assistant to the PR manager at Sony Music. Over the next seven years, she rose through the ranks to become the Victorian PR manager, working with some of the biggest names in music. In 2012, she

launched launched her own venture on the map PR and since then has championed artists like Rufus Doul, the Paper Kites, Amy Shark, and Pete Murray, all while raising three kitties. So, with 20 years under about in the music industry across both the indie and major label worlds, Emily brings a wealth of insight to the table. It's a real pleasure to have you here, Emily. So, welcome to the Australian New Zealand Music Podcast. Thanks for having me. That's that's the best intro I've ever received. Thank you

for taking the time. That was very well researched. Nice to hear. >> Thank you. Yeah. And well, you know, it was actually quite easy to find the information. You'll be surprised. You're you're a hot hit on the Google search, it seems. >> Uh we do ask for one little inside piece of knowledge, however, Emily. Uh, fun fact unrelated to music about yourself. You can take this however you like. Hit us. >> Oh, that's good. Fun fact, not about I love to cook. My favorite thing is my

side hustle. No, it's not a side hustle. It's just so I can eat it. I love to cook. I cook and eat a lot. >> Specialty dish. >> Oo. Specialty dish. M. Beef short ribs. >> Beef short ribs. All right, talk to me. >> Slow slowcooked Asian style brothy beef short ribs. Sweet and salty, tender, falling off the bone, crunchy flavor, delish. >> All right. All right. You got me. I'm hooked. I'm in. >> I hope you do a good as well, right? >> Yes.

>> Nice. Cool. All right. Let's jump straight on to the news for the week. This piece is entitled music tourism market worth over 267 billion by 2030 industry analysis by event age group booking mode and region with growth forecast and strategic company profiles. I discovered this report summary composed by research and markets through the music Victoria June newsletter actually. So shout out to them. Last year, the music tourism market was valued near 97 billion US, but it's projected to raise to$267

billion by 2030. But what is music tourism? In recent years, travelers, especially millennials and Gen Z, have moved away from international sightseeing tourism to prior prioritizing unique immersive experiences. Think Glastonbury and the like. Not only does it expand music over the globe, but it creates opportunities for host cities to expand their tourism market. The same festivals are now on tour, popping up at different locations across the year. Ultra, originally from Miami, now has additions in South Korea,

Croatia, Brazil, South Africa, and right here in Australia. This not only strengthens the festival brand, but brings significant tourism res revenue to these locations. You could even claim that the globalization of music sported by streaming platforms is directly linked to the growth of music tourism as fans now have a wider array of artists to follow leading to travel to concerts from their favorite artists in international locations. Consider BTS, Coldplay, and Taylor Swift where fans travel thousands of miles just to attend

their performances or perhaps multiple performances. Yes. music tourism. What was the first time I had come across this term? Had you come across this term before? >> You know, it's actually such a thing. Um, something that comes to mind is last month we worked with Fisher. You know, Fisher, the Australian DJ and producer, and we announced a show. He played a show on the Gold Coast. Uh, one show in Australia on the Gold Coast. It was set to be on the beach, but obviously the um all of the damage to the beach with the

cyclone that happened. So, we moved it uh slightly off the beach, but given it was just one show in Australia, uh everyone kind of flew in for it and it was really cool to look and I got to deep dive on all the data after the event and see how much money it brought in to into the Gold Coast specifically. And the actual figures were amazing. And we blasted a press release about it because it was just such a cool thing to see the economic impact that one music event could have over a weekend. It was

a two-day show. So people were booking two nights of accommodation. I went up from Melbourne. Um heaps of people went up from Melbourne. I think it was 37% interstate attendees. Uh which is and it was something like 39 intrastate. So it was big. was really only a third percent locals and everything else people had to come and stay. So the final report was it brought in 54 million to the Gold Coast in revenue that weekend because of that event. So I love that you just asked that question because I had only

just last month finished typing up a press release about how exciting it is that these artists can really help the local economy as well. >> Yeah, that's that's a good weekend. Good pull. You'd be pretty happy with that. >> Huge weekend. Yeah, we did it last weekend as well. It was the first one. It's called Out to Lunch Festival. Uh and basically Fisher curates it himself and it's him and his mates doing DJ sets. It's wild. It's amazing. It's a really cool fun

wellplanned event. And yeah, last year was a massive sellout. It sold out in I think I want to say eight hours. It was and it was 30,000 tickets. and yeah moved to the same number of tickets this year again over two days. So a really cool thing that people are willing to travel for and as you said you know Ultra and all these festivals South by Southwest is in Australia now as well. Uh so there's that opportunity. It's you know people have to fly to wherever it is. Big Sound's happening soon and the

whole industry flies to Brisbane for it. So it is definitely >> true. What do you think is encouraging this trend to travel and see live music in particular? Why not maybe more so to travel overseas to another country to see a live show? Um, sort of hitting two birds with one stone. What What do you think that's come from? Especially in these millennials and Gen Z folk. >> Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? I actually don't know if I've got an answer for that because I never know how

anything is. We work on a lot of tours. We work on arena tours, stadium tours, and we work on indie band tours. So, you know, we might have a capacity of 100 for a gig in Melbourne, or we might be working Rod Lever Arena or Amy Park, which is, you know, 12,000, 40,000. So, we kind of work the full spectrum. And in truth, we just never I'm always surprised at sales reports. We're working the Pete Mari 56 date tour at the moment. And, >> you know, by the end of this tour, I think we're like, we've got 37 dates

left to go. And the tour is so well sold. It's it's nearly 80% sold already and there's still 37 dates to go. So it essentially almost every show is going to sell out on that tour. And you can never really forecast how well things are going to sell. And we're working other tours that are bigname artists and they're not selling as well as we thought they might. So and we work festivals and some of them move really quickly like the Fisher Out to Lunch Festival is wild. And I think it's also

to do with genres of music and the and the audience that are willing to pay for that. I know there's a big rise in EDM and people willing to pay top dollar, but to answer your question, I think um people's ticket buying behavior has changed and I feel like they're more willing to spend on the big buck tickets rather than, you know, the 30 $40 tickets for your Aussie bands at the, you know, the pub in Richmond or whatever. So, um I think that's the music tourism thing there where they're

saving their dollars and if their allocation for music for the year is a thousand bucks. >> They might use that to, >> you know, go to that oneoff big show that might be in their state or it might not be. And then they couple it and go, "Well, this is my holiday for the year as well, and I'm going to go see Coleplay." Um >> yeah, >> wherever. It it sounds almost like that um music spending budget has merged with that travel budget as well. So that's giving them a bigger scope to spend. And

I don't know, I feel like when you're on >> in that holiday mode, you are more willing to spend like you'll throw down a hundred bucks e much more easily than in your day-to-day life. You know, you see a $100 show down at wherever it is, Rod Labor, you're like, "Oh yeah, that would be cool." But like if you're already going to I don't know Japan for example to go see Coldplay or something like >> yeah I'm already spending all this money like yeah it's just another another

>> Totally agree. I think I've always had that mentality as well cuz if you are going to go on a holiday if you're going to Japan um you know you're already but it's a way bigger budget. So as you say that 100 bucks is menial in comparison to what you're spending anyway to be over there. But if that gives you the reason to take that holiday because your favorite artist is in Japan, it it for me in my headsp space that that's a no-brainer. And I think that's always

been the way I've I've looked at holidays as well. Uh if you can go somewhere because there's a reason, there's something compelling you to be there and if you love music, it might be your favorite artist or whatever. Um, but I remember when I was in finishing school in year 12, I flew to I went to Byron Bay for schoolies and from Melbourne and uh we I worked the trip around Red Hot Chili Peppers had a show in Brisbane. So I you know I made sure that I went to that week of schoolies and I got a

ticket to Chili Peppers and I drove up from Byron to Chili Peppers in Brisbane. So I think I've kind of that's been my mentality for many years. I think everyone's um maybe they're catching on. >> That's so funny you mentioned that. I was literally just thinking about some of the concerts I've been to in overseas locations and how they do >> have a little bit more sentimentality attached to them and I I seen the chili peppers to finish my schooling as well in Oakuckland in New Zealand. So I was

like that's I was reflecting on that experience as you were talking. I was like, I remember doing that and like we went with so and so and like we stayed at that you like have a bit more visual uh memory with it. You like the things you did around it too. It's like a whole it's a whole shebang. >> Yes. Cuz you didn't just go home because you were on the road, right? And my chili pepper story was wild. And this is before I even worked in music because we were staying in Byron and we were like,

"Oh well, we've already paid for our, you know, I'm 18. We've already paid for our accommodation in Byron. We're not going to get back to Byron. I'm not gonna pay for a second night of accommodation. We'll just do an all nighter. So my experience was leave Byron Schoolies to go to Brisbane, go to Chili Peppers, kill a show, and then just make a full night of it. >> No accommodation. I mean, now 40-year-old now >> that would hurt. I would never do that. I need to get to a bed. Please, someone

give me bed. But that was wild and so fun. So that whole memory around that is shaped by being interstate in that environment. So yeah, I think there's something about >> traveling for shows. I'm all for it. >> I also think that um these generations, Gen Z and millennials are leaning more into festival experiences in particular to uh have experiences of community. Um it's a very difficult time for us to find uh senses of community that um really give you a sense of spiritual fulfillment as

well. And I think we outsource some of that to music festivals and why not throw that in the bunch. Some people just follow the festivals around all the time, you know, like they'll do the whole summer festival tour of Europe or wherever it is, you know, just follow from festival to festival and they often have a sort of theme associated with them. Like you said, there's lots of electronic music festivals now. You could just do that for the rest of your life, I guess, if you had the money, you

know, you just follow them around forever and just sort of that becomes your family. That becomes your >> it becomes your home almost. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And your same group of friends, you know, or you meet new friends and then you stay in touch with those friends. >> Yeah. >> It is. It's there's a beautiful community around music. anyone. I really encourage everyone to go out there and and build their community there because of the joy that it brings, but also

because it supports the it supports your favorite bands. You know, the best thing you can do, people say to me like, "How do artists make their money anymore if they're making 0002% from streaming?" And I just the the first thing I can say is, "Go and support your favorite bands. Go and see them live when they're touring. That's how you can support them. buy that t-shirt from the merch desk. That's where the band actually makes a cut and can then record the new album so you can

devour it and love it. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. It all comes back around. >> Yep. >> Um, you sort of lent into this a little bit, but just diving into your PR expertise. uh how how would you or how would a PR campaign differ between say these these festivals on tour that we talked about compared to an artist tour? What would you do to encourage these immersive experiences and would there be any differences in terms of a PR campaign around a festival or an artist tour? >> Yes. So, a PR campaign, I mean, at the

end of the day, PR is chasing the pursuit of media exposure for whoever we're working with. Uh, so we work festivals and we work albums, we work straight singles, we work full tours. Uh, but at the moment, like for example, I'm working a festival in Townsville. It's kicking off. It's next Fortnite, actually, July 26. Oops. You might need to edit that because we're not going live in July. Um, >> it's all good. We're good. Um, >> it's early July here, folks. We all

good. >> Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. So, we are working a festival in Townsville. It's called One Street One Day. It's a brand new festival. Uh, it's it's a festival for regional towns. It's kind of, you know, this with the sad news of Griffin the Moo um not coming back this year. I think this is a great festival that will really hit that spot in the market, taking big bands to regional towns. So, this one's headlined by Hilltop Hoods. DMAS are playing, Meg Mack, um Brad Cox,

Cota. There's it's a great lineup uh going to Townsville. And so, the cool thing about working a festival is you especially in a small town like Townsville is I've got access to a full lineup and I can lock in interviews with the whole lineup in this small town of Townsville. So, it's so >> exciting for me as a publicist to be able to really saturate the town with this festival because hey, for ABC I can get you Brad Cox because he's really relevant to like talkback radio and and

that audience sits there, but I've also got Hilltop Hoods. So, we can go to commercial Brekie radio with the hoods. We can go to the local, you know, the major paper in town is the Townsville Bulletin, for example. So they'll talk to all the big acts and it's just really nice because we can hit every we can hit AM radio, we can hit commercial radio, online sites, we can go TV, local TV. There's really an artist for everyone. So um a festival in a small town, it's a really easy to take over and have

everyone know about it. There's not a single person in Townsville that won't know about this festival because we have access to the full scope of the lineup. Um if we're working a that being said, you know, we're as I mentioned, we're working um the Pete Murray tour and he played Townsville as well. I think he's already done it. And and then we just it's one voice that we're then pitching to uh all of the the local media, but in Pete's as Pete as an example, he is kind

of relevant to all of those media publications as well. So, um, yeah, he's one of the lucky ones, but if it was more of a heavy act, then they're probably not going to be relevant to a bunch of of the media outlets. So, it just varies depending on the genre, where the audience of the band sits, and then who we can pitch to. But, um, it's really fun working festivals because we get to then tap in with a whole heap of different pitches and different voices and and I feel like we can do some of

our best work because we can go, "Oh, you're not into that band, but what about this one?" And we can kind of I don't want to use the term bully, but we can kind of really massage media into supporting with someone. So, everyone kind of will support in the end. >> Yeah. >> Whereas if I get a media >> totally like if someone says, "Oh, I don't really want to talk to um if someone not that anyone would has said it." Well, you know, if they're like,

"Oh, Pete Murray is not really for me." Then I it's done, right? That's that's that media outlet and opportunity done. and we're kind of bulldogs at what we do and we like to really saturate every market so that we know we've rinsed it and done our bit for our artists and sold as many tickets by using our media relationships. So, um yeah, when there's a festival, look out. You don't have a reason to not support because we'll have something for you. >> I'm with it. I'm with it. I hear you.

Cool. Well, that's going to bring us to the end of part one. We're going to have a quick listen to a song Magnolia by Dominique Forester. >> Yeah, this is it. >> Cool. Um, so go check out the full song and we'll be back shortly to speak more about that song. >> Stay tuned, folks. For the longest time, we thought there were answers. Written somewhere for us to find ways to live and ways to die. No matter no mood, you are the answer. Feasting and faring, thrown into bloom

and then left be. And I wanted to find a reason, some providence behind this up up and down. Up, up, and down. >> Magnolia. Beautiful track. Beautiful. Sort of like a uh bit of a trippy indie vibe going on with that. Almost like some synthetic atmospheric vocal tones in the background, but then a very pure like clear-cut voice sitting on top of the whole mix. It It sits really nicely in the headphones. Um, yeah. What what what grabbed you initially when you first encountered this track, Emily?

>> It's just so lush. I really feel and Dominy's voice is you really nailed it how it sits on top of the music there. It's just she's so special. I really think she's just there's an opulence and clarity in her voice and her songwriting is beautiful. I just think she's, you know, look at the talent that we have in this country and in, you know, in New Zealand. There's so much amazing stuff coming out every day and people don't even, you know, all these people and

names that no one is even familiar with. And look how much time and effort they're putting into their craft and how beautiful and talented they are and how skillful the releases are. It's just, yeah, it blows my mind. I'm so lucky to work in music and I get really I have weekly um epiphies where I just go, "Wow, who are you and how have I never heard of you?" We get I get I get bands and artists emailing me every day with new music and and you know sometimes I'm like, "Oh,

you're not ready for a publicist, but so many of them I'm like, "Wow, how do I not even know who you are and you're this good?" Like we worked a song for an artist. Um we actually just announced a new song this week. An artist by the name of Chuck 6. He's a Sydney singer songwriter. He plays bass. His original instrument is trumpet I think actually. But he plays every instrument. He mixes his own record. He's like a onestop shop and he's so good. And I pressed play on

on the song and I was like who even are you and how is this your you know how have you not been releasing it? totally crazy talent out there that >> like no one's heard of and they're working on these insane drops and you know they they do it for themselves mostly but everyone is always seeking an audience at the end of the day and yeah it blows my mind so many bands that we get to work with and artists just like Dominique Foster with Magnolia beautiful masters of their craft and yeah how do

we share it with the world that's that's our job how do we get them an audience. How do we get people listening because they deserve >> the people to be listening? And if people press play, like they're going to fall in love with that song. If you're into if you're into lush indie folk, um then you should know who Dominique Foster is. But how do we how do we make that happen? How do we get that in how do we get her in front of everyone that is going to love her, fall in love with it?

That whole record is beautiful. >> Well, that's the golden question, isn't it? There's always that there there is a flood of music out there to to sift through and not enough hours in the day to hear it all. But I'm glad to have heard that. It really felt like she has an aura of a storyteller, like there's something to be told and the way she stringed words together, her phrasing in the song really stood out to me. Yeah, it was. And the music seemed to just be supporting

creating a space for her to tell the story. The the music was serving the storytelling element >> in her in her music. I mean, I don't know, Dominique personally, but I'm I'm creating this grand vision of her as a storyteller. So, >> I hope that's what she's going for. >> Absolutely. And Magnolia has just been it's actually lifted from her new album. She just dropped an album called The Lonely last month. And it is it is a journey. It's so special. So, if you

loved Magnolia, go and have a listen to The Lonely. Her name is Dominique Foster, and she's a Melbourne artist who's doing some really beautiful things. She dropped an EP with Leor a couple of years ago called Animal in Hiding, and that's that's a great listen, too. So, deep dive everyone into her back catalog because there's some gold. >> There's some Yeah, it's it is beautiful. Do you know where she recorded that? >> Uh, I can find out, let me tell you. I I

will know. Um she is actually from Nimbon but lives in Melbourne. >> Okay. >> Um let me >> Where is Nimbon? >> Nim's up near Byron Bay. >> Okay, cool. >> Yes. Uh I can't find where she recorded it, but >> that's all good. Uh she worked with Lachlan Carrick who produced it, recorded and mixed and mastered it and co-producer >> fabulous job. >> Yeah, he really has. It's so beautiful. And her co-producer was multi-instrumentalist Josh Barber who's

worked with like Greta Ray and Gautier. Lachlan Carrick's worked with uh Gotautierre and Emma Donovan. So proper really Yeah. solid writing credits there. >> Top tier. And they um they recorded it in a converted 1860s chapel studio in Victoria's Goldfields region. >> There we go. The money part of the story, right? Yeah. Beautiful. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's all part of Awesome. Thanks for letting us play that here, Dominique. Go check it out, folks. And uh while you're at it, you can zoom on

over to jimjot.com.au. If you would like your song to feature here on this podcast and get a little bit of feedback at the same time, you can access that for free today. Zoom on over there and hit me with a hit me with an email and let's chat. And maybe also you're looking for some artist development tools, which is where Jim Jot thrives with our tried and tested development course. You will unlock your inner artist and find your musical direction. So, book that free 30 minute consultation right now. Which brings us

actually to our chats about artist development. I just have to get that little ad spin out the way, Emily. It's it's such a fun one to do, isn't it? But um artist development >> 30 minute that free 30 minute consultations. >> That's right, folks. >> That's wild. 30 minutes of your time you your experience for free. That is so generous. >> Yes. No, it's it's a pleasure. Honestly, I I really enjoy doing these with people and it just keeps me connected with the

industry as well. Keeps me connected with how artists what problems artists are encountering at the moment. So, >> yeah, >> we're here to serve, right? Um, >> artist development. >> Let's talk artist development. Um, >> would you consider yourself an artist in the PR industry? Is that how you would define yourself? I am not an artist but I have I would dare if I can say so myself I have well curated ears >> uh for what the industry >> is enjoying.

>> Yeah. >> So and it's been changing over the years. So I started um as per your very kind and generous introduction I started at Sony Music when I was 20. I turned 21 the month after I started at Sony and I've been in music for 20 years. Um, so over those 20 years, I've seen uh and heard a lot of music and trends. And that's me in very deep discussions every day for 20 years with the media getting our artists or the whichever artists I'm working heard and songs played on radio,

interviews on TV, performances in the paper, whatever it is. basically being the voice of our artists and chasing down exposure for them to share their music and news of their tours or whatever it is that we're pushing and selling. Uh, and so yeah, I feel like over those years I've watched different music trends and genres come and go. You know, at the moment I'd say we're in, as I alluded to earlier, we're in a real EDM phase where electronic music is what people seem to be willing to spend on

live tickets. Um, and then but you know 5 years ago it was a real rock phase where any you know if you're a rock act it was really it was much easier for us to get your song away on the radio um to have pe you know people were buying up big on live tickets to rock shows as well. So you know it comes and goes. the genres come and go that are popular and on trend and when things are popping off you you there are always the >> the odd ones in between that don't have to hit those genres and you know at any

one time we'll be working all genres regardless and there is a place for everything um but the stuff that really connects and I think is connecting at the moment would be that EDM thing so I think um it's yeah it's changed over the last 20 years and uh how media consume music has changed. So that whole development uh of the artist development has changed as well. Um but >> that's what I was going to ask actually. Have you noticed speaking of trends and like having worked with so many artists

through your years in the industry, has there been some reoccurring trends that you've observed that artists have points of development that these artists you've worked with? And maybe it's been working directly with you or maybe it's just been observing them working in and around your atmosphere, the teams that you're in. What have you noticed for these musicians has been crucial pieces like key aha moments we like to talk about? >> Yeah, I think I think it's really it's

quite plain and simple for most bands when they give themselves the time to roll out their music. It always bodess well. >> Not rushing your release. That's probably my biggest tip is take your time. >> Don't rush your release. I have so many acts come to me and say, "I've been sitting on this EP for a year now. I just want to get it out." And and oh, I haven't had time to, "No, I don't have I don't have any press shots. I haven't had time." Or, "No, we're not doing a

video clip. I don't have time." Or, um, you know, if it's a budget thing, there's there's ways around everything. I know that making music is expensive and it's and it's yeah, it's not easy, but these artists, as we were saying, there's so much talent out there. And if you've got a great song, uh, but you don't have all the assets, don't race it to the market. Do the song justice and make, you know, create that single art. Let it be the best that it

can be. get those really strong press shots cuz in today's day and age everything is so visually minded and and it's a dig we're in a digital age. So it is about it's about teasing and servicing your audience across socials with snippets whether it's you know short reels of the song with with vision or whatever it is really honing on a lyric video or single artwork various press shots. It's about really building that community around your brand and that is via having all of all of your

assets ready to roll out and tell that story and bring everyone along for the journey on your release. So yeah, having a great song as everyone says, and I hate that expression, it's just not enough. You can't just have a great song. You've got to factor in everything else as well. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's can be quite um troublesome for the creative spirit to to hold that produce for so long, you know, like because like you said, sitting on a EP or whatever it is, >> man, some people can sit on it for 10

years, you know, just sort of sitting there almost eating away at their creative spirit like not being fully liberated so that they can move forward creatively. But the the process of creation rec and recording for that matter too, which I'd probably still include in the creation phase, uh it's completely different to the to the release, isn't it? And and this is where a lot of artists can slip into that rush, you know? I just want it off my back. I just want to move forward. Like it doesn't even feel like it's

representing me anymore. Like that was a past version of myself. >> And if you've sat on it for 10 years, why why push it out tomorrow? Give it another two months, get those assets together and roll it out with the strategic plan. >> Agree. >> Because you've sat on it for 10 years. >> Totally. Yeah. It's already been uh fermenting so long. >> Yeah. Right. Totally. And I think, you know, and don't let anything go unnoticed. Give everything your best shot. Even if you just want to get it

off your back. And as you say, it's liberating. I I don't even align with these songs anymore. I've written 100 songs that are better, but then you know, but they still insist on releasing it. Then then get it out there, but still do the song and the release justice and then move on. Or if you can't do it justice, sit on it, park it. Maybe you don't need to even put it out there. >> Yeah. >> Because it's much harder to come back from a flop than it is a perceived flop

than to wait longer between releases and service something well. Mhm. >> considered strategic roll out. >> That's a good point. >> Totally. >> And not even necessarily a flop because so many indie artists don't even have an audience that they're talking to, but if they're just dropping it out there without an audience, um there's no one to consume it. How do you build an audience? Well, it's about you at the start. It's about engaging your friends,

family, friends of friends, and then finding who your fans are, how do they behave, and where do they inhabit and what are they doing and how do I reach them via all of these things, you know, what do they wear, what do they eat, where do they, you know, where are they hanging out on weekends and how do I reach them? So, it's about finding your community, bringing them on board, and giving them what they want in the form of your brand. It's not just give them the song. It's like, right, share what

they want to see from you. Do you are they thrift shoppers? You know, maybe that's part of that becomes part of your merch line. You don't just do the standard print merch. Maybe you um thrift shop tease and bespoke print each merch item. I don't know what it is, but that would speak to that specific community if that's who you are. Um, usually the audience is people that align with you personally. Uh, and then they buy in on you. This is kind of what we're finding on a marketing front is

they buy in on you, the artist, and your brand. Um, and then everything you deliver to them, they're more amendable to because they like you and your brand. So they're more likely to go, "Oh yeah, she served me like, you know, Taylor Swift served me a folk song and I loved it." And then all of a sudden she moved away from uh country initially, then into pop, into folk into and her audience is along for the ride because she has a hardcore community >> around her. She can serve them whatever

she wants and they will lap it up. >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So everyone takes on that attitude and I know that's a big example but even if you do it from day dot where you have no audience except for your family and friends. Um that's how you slowly day by day grow grow your audience and awareness. And I'll never forget I remember being at um a Holy Holy show. It was at many years ago and they play much bigger venues now. But I remember when Oscar Dawson the guitarist said, "Wow, tonight was amazing."

because the ratio of familiar faces to strangers in the audience finally worked in our favor. >> I it's not all >> How cool is that? And I love I just got goosebumps again. I love that I was there for that for them because now they play massive shows and they wouldn't really ever see a familiar face. >> Um but it's exciting for bands to realize that hey that's not someone I know in the audience and that's how it starts. It's real small and that's the

thrill. And then ideally keep at it. Persistence, keep releasing, share regularly, build that community, share with them across socials. That's your direct line with everyone to get them along for the ride with you. Uh and then eventually, ideally, you'll have a bit of a holy holy situation where you go, "Wow, I don't know anyone in the audience." >> Yeah, of course. >> And then in the end, the other end of the spectrum, oh yes, I can see someone I know. That's the thrill. It comes all

the way back to that, right? full circle. >> Yeah. Nice. >> I think it's really important what you just outlined is um the artist as a full um what would you say stratosphere like that that pulls people in. Um and it's it's >> it's very seldom just about the music. There's maybe a couple of artists who could make a claim that it's >> just about the music, but I don't know. It feels like it's there's there's a lot more on artists artists now. Like

there's there's a different approach in that you could just write music, right, for the sake of well-being for that matter. >> Y >> and release music with no sort of uh intention of uh creating a following, a fan base, whatever it may be, just throwing it into the ether and accepting the fact that it's probably not going to do anything apart from the fact that you're just liberating yourself from it to be a creative, right? >> Yep. But the artist, the artist is

something else, right? The artist is all of those aspects. It's the marketing vision. It's the knowing your fan. It's the building it up. It's the playing the small venues. Is the seeing those fans slowly become strangers and then full circle yada yada yada. All those aspects. I think that's that's what separates an artist from a musician in a way. >> Yep. Yeah. And you know what? It's quite daunting for artists who are like, but I just want to be in it for the music.

They're liberating. I write because it's cathartic for me. It helps me move through my hard times in life, the joys of my life, you know, celebrate it. I I love talking to artists because there they deeply feel everything. Uh, and usually that's how they get into writing initially. Uh, and then the journey starts from there. But yeah, I definitely think it's uh it is it's it's daunting to have to be all of that in order to try and if you come back and it's all about your artistry and the

songs for you, you then have to play that game to try and uh you know find your audience. And I say to my artists, my indie artists all the time, I'm like, I really don't envy the journey that you're on because it's hard. You want to be the artist, but you've got you've also got to be the manager. You've also got to be at in the early days the booking agent. You've got to be the stylist. You've got to be the publicist. You've got to be the journalist. You've

got to write your own bios. You've got to, you know, you might even be setting up a tripod and taking your own press shots. It's it's really DIY hands-on before you can afford a team around you. And that's a lot mentally for an artist to take on, especially when we recognize artists are often, you know, beautifully sensitive people in the first place. So, it it is a lot to think about, a lot to take on, but my my suggestion is always lean on your community around you. Who do you know that can hold a camera and

take a photo? Who do you know that can help you write your bio? Chat GPT is a dirty word to so many, but it can give you a framework and then you can go in and work with that framework. I'm not saying to just chat GPT a press release or a bio, but you can get some tips on a framework and then you can go in and fine-tune and edit. It doesn't have to be a huge daunting thing. There are little loopholes and hacks in life to help you out. Whether it's people that you know, um even getting tips from you,

having a half an hour consult with you, for example, just to get a grasp. I do consults as well so I can help indie artists um figure out what they're doing. It's kind of like a pseudo management thing where I can just send them on their way to know what they need to do to get ready to release. Uh and so yeah, going to if you're a member of your local music body like music Victoria um I spoke at the connect sessions for APA a couple of weeks ago which were it was such a beautiful day.

They had amazing guest guest speakers. They had um Simon Winkler from Triple R who's the music director there. They had someone from Arts Law there. They had Cara Williams who's a prolific manager and has been an editor and um is a publicist as well. Uh they had Jordan Ais who's ANR for Gyroream. So all of this was all of us industry professionals speaking and being there for Q&As's sitting on a panel and afterwards having lunch and being there so that you can come up and ask me any

questions that you want. You know, it's about networking, finding other people that are going through it with you and being like, "Hey, what are you doing and how do you do this?" And then in those networking environments, you never know, you might find like-minded people that you're like, "Hey, do you want to come and play at my single launch?" And you guys help each other. It's about getting out there and and utilizing whatever you can to grow your knowledge on the

industry on how to do it because it doesn't always have to be paid. You know, you're offering free consults, which is so beautiful. That connect session was completely free for any um opera or music Victoria member and you had access to an arts lawyer. You could have spoken for half an hour to this amazing human who writes contracts for indie and known artists every day for free at no lawyer rates. So really I feel like it is tough out there. There's a lot of artists releasing music. It's

hard to cut through the noise, but the artists that are making it are the ones that are going after it. They're the ones that are out there at these uh panel chats. Like I see the same people at the same things. They're really taking advantage of what they have in front of them on offer. It doesn't have to cost a single dollar and you get a free lunch. Half the time you get a free lunch like the >> get the free food up. You're winning, right? So, um yeah, because I do have a

lot of artists that are like, "It's so hard." And I really empathize and I totally agree and I'm like, "Right, what are you doing about it? It doesn't have to have to cost you money. You can actually go out there and be networking regularly. There are so many free gigs every week in every city of this great country. You you can be out there in music every day without it costing you a dollar. >> Yeah. No one said it was going to be easy, did they? >> Oh, it's not easy. And I really do. That

sounds like I'm being a bit cold because I really do feel for them. It's such a It's a real tough slog. But there is also grant money that they can be going for. So, making sure, hot tip, sign up for Golden Grants newsletter and uh every week or two whenever grants drop, they send a newsletter and say, "Hey, this week, New Creative Victoria dropped this or PPCA have dropped this grant. Applications are due on the 8th of September. Um, this is how much you can go for." It's basically putting every

grant opportunity in Australia in front of you and you can apply for the ones that are relevant. So, sign up to the Golden Grants newsletter. If it's daunting and you have a budget, you can even get them to write your grant application for you. >> That's a great tool. I didn't know about that. That's fabulous. >> That's so great. Yeah. And I actually had an indie artist, I want to say last year, maybe it was actually the year before, say, hey, I really want to use

you for roll out, but I can't afford you. I don't have a budget. I was like, go and apply for grants. And she came back, I don't even know, maybe four months later, and said, you are not going to believe it. I thought that I might be able to budget for you for one single. She's like, "I just got two grants." And I'm not going to say the artist's name, but she got a $13,000 grant from Music V uh Create, >> what is it? Uh, back then it was um anyway, Victorian government grant. And

then she also got a Creative Australia grant at 20 grand. So, an indie artist that you've never heard of got $33,000 to roll out her album, the promotion of her album. >> There's really, >> it's amazing. There is grant money there to be had from government bodies, but also private. And even if it's not in the form of dollars, there's so many different opportunities out there. Like I just flew to the Blue Mountains last month to chat at the seed fund, which is John Butler's management workshop for

self-managed artists that he puts on >> and he curates it himself and selects I think 30 um artists and managers and self-managed artists to put them in a room and basically they it's a it's such a magical week. They pay for everything. and they fly them in and they put on all the food and accommodation and then they have industry they will industry specialists in to teach all about their craft. Uh and then we do speed dating so that I sat down with everyone and gave them one-on ones with about publicity um

and how to help them with their own PR. So it doesn't have to be grant money in the form of cash that's going to be helpful for you. It might be studio time. It might be um publicity grant private. It might be jumping in on something like the seed fund and getting a week worth of knowledge and communi and community and um networking and yeah the power of all the various things on offer. You just have to sniff them out. >> Yeah. Well, you've already just offered us so much to explore. Um some really

invaluable avenues to venture down for our listeners. Um, that does bring us to the end of our podcast and we're going to let Magnolia play out while uh perhaps you could tell us a bit more about where people could get in touch with you if they'd like to or where they can follow your journey and all those yummy yum details to share. >> Yeah, for sure. So, uh, my name is Emily Chung and I am the director of On the Map PR. So, you can find us uh on all the regular socials places at onthemapr

and my email address is on our website, but it's just emily@onthemapr.com. And uh yeah, I offer industry consults where we can sit down and nut out a plan for you. They are paid, unfortunately. They're not free like yours. Yours are amazing. Uh, and uh, but you know, I I you can hit me with an email and I'll always listen and I'll always answer. It's I'm definitely have an email policy that not a single email goes unread or unanswered. So, hit us up. We do have a capp roster. We keep a small roster so

we don't take on uh a lot. But even if we are at capacity, I can still offer advice or suggest other publicists that might be great for your band or release tour depending on your genre and who might be a good fit for you. >> Awesome. >> Thank you so much, Emily. Um that's it for us here. Episode 6, the Australia New Zealand music podcast. We will love you and leave you. Take care, team. Chowo chiao. Thank you.